Uh, yeah, Walter, it does affect one party more than the other. There have been extensive reports explaining just how that is. If it truly were non-partisan then there would be some Democratically controlled states passing this stuff. However, it is only Republican-controlled states. Bottom line is that those who do not have driver's licenses tend to be poor or elderly, who typically support Democrats, and it just isn't a piece of cake for them to get to Penndot let alone go through the process.

Free - if you can take days off of work to go to a center when it's open, can get there (these people by definition don't have licenses) or have someone else take time off to take them and wait, go through at times multi-hour lines (and many of these people are mobility-impaired due to age or illness), and in some cases have to wait 10 days and then come back when they get a letter. It's fairly easy - if you don't work, if you have transportation and can drive(!), if you live close to a center (a bunch of counties don't even have one, and a bunch more are open 1 day a week), if you can get the documents they require.... Yeah, it's easy, just run down and get one.

I.e. it's easy for *you*, and screw those who it's not easy for.

The poor need ID to get Food Stamps and other social benefits...what's the big deal here? You need an ID for everything! Go to the airport and tell TSA that you don't need an ID because you're poor....Requiring a ID to vote ensures that only registered voters actually vote.

mw

oh come on, just outlaw Democrats voting and be done with it. After all, aren't they considered 'feeble minded' by all that are 'good and holy' (i.e. Repugs) just by registering as Democrat to begin with? In your perfect little Corbettville, that would be the ideal scenario, right?

Gramma don't forget to vote on Wed Nov 7. Hell vote twice like a good dem.

Like your style there Granny, reminds me of my Grand Mother who was a lifelong D, and who by the way did not have a photo ID. I think people are starting to understand the true motives of the Rs, on this debacle. It is anyone's guess what is going to happen, either in the courts or at the polls, but all voters should be concerned whether Rs or D's. It really is an attack on democracy, and undermines or rights as citizens to vote.

Not everyone "goes" places, Anthony. The "big deal" is getting to PennDot -- not so easy for those who do not drive and in rural areas where PennDot is hours away.

I don't think the obtaining of an ID is the issue. The major issue is the timeliness of it all. If the law was passed in March, why would anyone believe 6 months is enough time to get over 200,000 people these free IDs. In addition, PennDot has not extended their hours at all. And taking off work, and not getting paid, because you don't have PTO or vacation time is an issue for many people. And I have researched PennDot locations. Not every city has one and in some locales, the nearest one is at least 25 miles away. So I agree with needing IDs to vote but just allow sufficient time for people to get them or have PennDot accommodate those who want an ID.

I haven't had to show a photo ID in years. What do you mean *anywhere you go today"? I haven't had to, so your statement is false.

I do agree though that this is ridiculous. It's just another attempt for the Republicans to try & steal the election.

"another attempt for Democrats to try and steal the election"

Squak! Polly wanna cracker? sounds like another fox news parrot, repeating whatever the line, no matter how rediculous or empty it sounds.

If these people can get to the polls they can get to Penndot.

The state senator who sponsored the ID bill said that it would insure the election of Romney. If that isn't theft by the Republicans, I don't know what is.

Mr Katz,
Maybe the Senator was implying that by reducing the dead folks, the folks registered to vacant lots, dogs and cats registered from voting in Philadelphia that a more honest count would result in a true majority for Romney. There are two ways of looking at it. Currently there is no check and balance in place to stop someone from going to multiple places and voting more than once.

Nice try Reaganite. Elections are Tuesday, Novemer 6th; however, feel free to try to vote on Wednesay, the 7th.

Anyway, I do agree with the photo i.d.; however, why the rush? Give people time, that's all.

First, the voter id law is requiring a PennDOT, college or government employee id, whereas the other purchases mentioned, if made, require only id - with or without picture. A voter registration card would do - I have one. It has my name on it and because it is a voter registration, it proves that I am over 18 and a citizen. It does not have the same name as my utility bills or my birth certificate. And voting is my constitutionally guaranteed right, not a shopping preference. For non-drivers, and non-travelers, this is a real burden.
I recently volunteered to phone voters who may not have an identification match with their voter registration and almost all of them were unaware of the new requirement. Many had DIFFERENT names on their drivers licenses. After conversations with these people, I realized that when we first register to vote, many of us sign up at a card table voter drive somewhere - in school, in front of the supermarket, when a party volunteer rings the bell of our new home. We sign our names - without checking our drivers license first - adding or leaving out an initial, using a nickname or a middle name that everyone calls us - the list goes on.
This law was passed in the spring of a presidential voting year - in a hurry, without much publicity. And if the ACLU had not challenged it, it would probably not have been in the headlines every day, to remind people to look into this. THIS IS WRONG!!

You don't have a permit if you live in PA, you have a license to carry AND it doesn't have to be concealed as in CCWs. You might try to read it yourself.

actually it is issued by the county and is property of the sheriff. Not sure if it is good to vote with. Depends on wither the DOS considers it a state ID, since they are consistent around the state. Waiting for an answer from the DOS

If it were that easy to do, Louis, you wouldn't see the complaints. Try to put yourself in the shoes of a disabled person, an elderly person in a rural area, a poor person who has no way to get around, and so on.

"If it were that easy to do, Louis, you wouldn't see the complaints. Try to put yourself in the shoes of a disabled person, an elderly person in a rural area, a poor person who has no way to get around, and so on."

If they have now way to get around, then they have now way to vote unless it's the one time in 12 months that they leave their home. If they can leave twice, they can get an I.D.

As any sly fox could tell you, no one is going to report voter fraud. Who witnesses it? The perpetrator or the official who allows it to happen. So which one of them are you relying on to report it?!?

Mike, who are the officials refusing to report it?

Philadelphia.

Mike, then it is not voter fraud, it is poll worker fraud

Duh ... already there. Next argument?

You sure aren't helping yourself here. You must have photo ID to buy a Pistol, Rifle or shotgun, and then they call the PA State Police and check up on you to boot. PIC.

Try another angle, this one only makes ID and Rights a moot point.

Danny,
Your wrong. I bought a 30 aught 6, about 3 months ago with no background check.

i am on social security and when i applied i had to show my birth certifiate.and a photo id so my question IS how did these seniors get their SS without proper ID

How do you cash a SS check with out an ID or have a bank account??? Its the law that you need an ID and a birth cert to open a bank account or cash a check!!!

'Cause Democrats don't care WHO votes, so long as they vote Democrat!

teresa, think about it: I have voter registration which I obtained via my drivers license. Not everyone has a drivers license but they voter registration. This is just yet another barrier to voting that is NOT NEEDED. This extra barrier is NOT NEEDED. Keywords: NOT NEEDED.

bill frome: Where did you get that idea. I have opened a bank account at the Bank of America without being required to show my birth certificate and I very much doubt anybody else has.

You do not have to have your birth certificate to open a bank account, BUT you do need a Government issued Photo ID. Let's not embellish and give the libs more reason to deflect the truth.

You do not a birth certificate to open a bank account. As far as Social Security if you do not have a birth certificate date of birth determinations are done. That is part of the job done there for those who were born in rural areas or do not have records in state data bases. There are detailed federal regulations on how to establish a date of birth for federal benefits when documents are not available.

Comemnt

Slyfox where do you live? I've worked in a bank for 17 years and a valid state or gov. photo id is REQUIRED to open an account or cash a check. Heck because of all the FRAUD out there even a finger print is required if you do not have an account. People are just lazy. Get your ID... you mean to tell me that those who "can't" get it NEVER leave their homes? Please. ** and I am a democrat. What is wrong with this country? Are we that ready to use any lame excuse to avoid having to do something other than what we feel like at the time? Yes, there is a RARE exception but it's just that! Then my question is how are they getting out and voting? This country is becoming a bunch of whiners! “Poor me….” my butt!!!

Dear sic, Just to put it in perspective there are 425 polling places in Montgomery county, there are 71 PennDOT licensing centers in the whole state, many with limited hours and some only open 1 day a week.

And, unlike voting, none of those things are rights guaranteed to all adult citizen by Constitutional Amendments.

Sorry, I opened an account at Citizens, although I have none at that bank (Use BMT), the employees do know me, yet this should not overturn a regulation, and I most certainly did not have to show any ID, not that I would have had a problem with it, simply that I did not, this was at the Manoa Branch.

You also needed a photo ID to attend the DNC convention earlier this month in Charlotte and to attend the NAACP Convention address by U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder. (the topic: Voter Photo ID laws and how "bad" they are!)

Mike, as I've replied to you several times already - none of those things are Constitutionally guaranteed. Nobody's EVER been talking about the efficacy or useful applications of using IDs to regulate access, and continuing to trot out out that same old misdirection like it holds merit is just disingenuous.

Sorry, Morgan, but I don't find the argument that voting is a constitutional right particularly compelling against the very simple use of an ID at the polls. If someone is allowed to misrepresent themselves at the polls, which has been and will continue to be done, then it affects MY constitutionally protected vote!

Anything that further secures the vote, PROTECTS everyone's right to vote.

It doesn't really matter if you find it compelling or not, though - adult citizens have a right to vote in this country, regardless of having an ID. That's the end of it. The state can place requirements, like an ID, for standard voting procedure if they make them freely and easily available to the entire eligible population (I'd argue that requires a window of more than 2 months before the following election), but they can't deny your right to vote, even if its with a provisional ballot.

The use is simple, but, as has been showed countless times over this months, obtaining one by November 6 isn't for all registered voters. I can think of no reason we couldn't have a system ready to accommodate all voters by 2014's elections. I want the system as free from corruption as you do, but it's delusional to think preventing legitimate votes (which is almost certain and relatively widespread) isn't as corrupt as in-person voter fraud (which is pretty unlikely and isolated).

The good news for both of us is that it probably won't matter either way - Romney's polling terribly in PA and a thousand disenfranchised voters or a thousand in-person fraudulent votes won't really make much of a difference. But, you know, it's the principle, and individual rights need to be protected at every challenge so that they aren't eroded.

The requirement became law in March, not two months before the election. Anyone who's been waiting for the the courts to decide this are only screwing their own right to date.

Latest figures show 8500 IDs issued by the end of August. Not too many people trying very hard to comply ...

oops ... right to vote ...

What did people use when they registered to vote? I would presume some type of ID was used at that juncture, so now suddenly whatever was used then is not good enough now? What has changed. The issue is not the ID, but the particular nature of the kind of ID. My work ID would not cut it, but I use it all the time.

@Morgan: Just to be clear ... you are in full support of being able to purchase any firearm without having to provide ID, right? Because that would be trampling a "right guaranteed to all adult citizen by Constitutional Amendment".

Mike Jones, I would call that difference between 'the right to bear arms as part of a well organized militia' and 'the right to buy guns' - they aren't exactly the same thing. Even if the comparison were valid, the time it takes to buy a firearm doesn't have a specific, upcoming end point, whereas voting in this particular election does. I've said on here a dozen times that I support National IDs for voting as long as they are readily available to everyone over the long term, rushing a poorly conceived and executed ID plan out in time for Nov. 6 is the issue, not the premise that IDs are a great way to prove an identity.

Morgan King said,
"rushing a poorly conceived and executed ID plan out in time for Nov. 6 is the issue"

Then it's clearly a non-issue, a figment of your imagination maybe. This law was in place for quite a while. During the primary election (6 months before the upcoming election) everyone was asked to produce their required photo ID. Although it was a "dry-run" and did not prevent anyone from voting if they did not have the ID, it did put everyone on notice to the need. It was also publicized quite a bit back then and continues to be till this day. Rushed?

And if you do not have an ID this November you may request a provisional ballot.

Well, Wayne Schissler, that's not really any indicator of it not being poorly implemented, though - I showed my ID when I voted back then, too, but PennDOT just started having the legally-required-to-be free so-its-not-a-poll-tax IDs available the last week of August. The poor roll-out, implementation, and availability were all reasons cited for sending the bill back to the lower court by the lawyers and the state supreme court, so I think you'd have a hard time arguing that it's an imaginary concern.

Many of the people without ID to vote, are not without ID. They just do not have the specific ID necessary to vote. If you show a poll worker your veterans ID with your name and picture, and your name is the same in the voting registry, your signature matches and your birthday matches, why wouldn't the poll worker know it is you? Does an expiration date change who you are? NO. The PA Supreme Court Justices' judicial photo id would allow them to cash a check, go on a plane, buy cold medicine and all the myriad of examples that have been brought up, EXCEPT, it wouldn't be good for voting. Tell me why. The reality not the rhetoric.

Mike the law did not start to be publicized until the end of July and the DOS which usually would get a year or two to iron out all the kinks of a new law. They had to do it in a few months which is why they have changed the regulations about 9 times so far. As the PennDOT employees are not be trained on all the changes so they are giving a lot of people wrong information so that's another reason why only 10,000 have gotten id's so far.

Really??? Why? Because only Democrats take the chance of a mismatched name?!?

Nope, the names have to substantially conform, not match exactly, but the last name has to be the same so those women will get caught

Then why did have to fax over a copy of my license to Chester County voter services because my license says David J Curran and I am registered to vote as David J Curran Jr. It is delusional to think PA is going to handle this properly given the compressed time frame. The only certain thing is that it is going to spend money that could be used more wisely elsewhere. Thanks GOP u have shown your true colors when it comes to handling taxpayers money. Just a bunch of hypocrites..

Substantially conform is in the judgment of the polling place. You can be denied if they want to . So let's consider - and this could impact either party - oh, your a Republican in a Democratic precinct with a mismatch name and I decide it does not substantially conform - my judgment under the law - then what?

This law does NOT prevent fraud, so it does nothing to protect your vote. I do like your fish explaination, but the DOS keeps moving the lake. I have been training people to help themselves and others get the required ID. The rules have changed 9 times in the period of less than 5 months. How is the average citizen supposed to keep up with that when the PennDOT employees who are supposed to be getting them ID can't. Getting a Pennsylvania State ID is especially difficult for seniors, who in many cases have been voting legally for decades. PennDOT locations are few and far between, are not convenient for non-drivers and their hours are limited causing excessively long waits. Add that to the poorly trained PennDOT staff.

Cari,
I disagree completely. The repubs are not not the "teach you to fish" party. They're the "the hold you down party". When you tilt the playing field and then try to convince people that it's even, that's deceptive. 4 of the last 5 repub presidential candidates didn't build anything. They did it the old-fasioned way. They inherited it. That's the US's problem. Too many people haven't had the chance to acheive. Call it class warfare. I call it the cornerstone of democracy. If my children are withheld from pursuing their goals due to a political structure. Then we will need to bring down the gov't to provide equality for the masses. It's called a democratic revolution. It happened here once and can happen again

Wouldn't it be equally violated by someone casting a non-opposing vote if it's fraudulent?

You realize of course that Puerto Rico is a territory of the U.S. and those individuals are U.S. citizens?

Great use of adjectives. Other than that, don't forget your ID!

Wow, voting should not be convenient in a democratic republic that we are? That is one scary thought. So - make it tougher so only certain people have access? That comment renders me almost speechless. The exact opposite of what I would want my children to learn or believe. IN fact the exact attitude I would tell them to work against.

Bartman, That's the problem. Many people believe voting should be easy and convienient. You, and others, think it shouldn't. You want me to "prove" fraud afterwards. I want you to "prove" fraud before. There needs to be a middle ground.

Actually Mr Frieri if you read his bio he has about ten jobs. What do they say " jack of all trades master of none". I think his prime motivation is to drive traffic to his sophomoric web site. Not a serious person.

Where? There are no jobs.

Success! Thanks.

It's nice to see many other sane people here see that Tom Fartman is a little whiney nerd. He was and still is the dork everyone goofs on. Run along little Fartman, I am sure you and your dork buddy Shortnall talk about how we are all dumb & how the both of you would tongue kiss Rush Limbo. Hey Fartman----you are the dum dum.
Bye dum dum!

I have no doubt that people are going to be perceiving more fraud and disenfranchisement than usual because it's so prominent in our national discussion, but this thing's only going to court if its extremely close, which is not at all the case 50 days out from the vote.

It's true the PA voter ID law does NOT stop fraud

Pipes, your comment makes no sense. What does voting have to do with your diatribe against Islam?

Daniel, none of the scenarios you present will be stopped by ID that wouldn't have been stopped before. Zombie apocalypse voters, how do they get their signature to match, no current address on ID allows multiple votes. You should wake up and realize that the Voter ID law does NOT prevent fraud. So what does it prevent? voting

dont believe the hoax, Romney Will be President of the united States of America in January 2013

God Bless Willard Mitt Romney

Ya. clearly. Obama is doing so much good. Unemployment hasn't moved for 3 years. Record numbers in poverty. Record numbers on disability. Record numbers on food stamps.

He had control of the house and senate for TWO YEARS... and he did what? Oh... ObamaCare. The plan that is now estimated to cost TWICE what Obama said it would. What did he do for the Economy? Oh... the STIMULUS package. A Union payoff that saved union jobs for two years, then they got laid off anyway, and the economy wasn't helped.

Hasn't passed a budget in THREE YEARS. Last two budgets had ZERO Democratic votes for them. Took the "Temporary" stimulus spending, and foled it into the budget, massively expanding FEDERAL employment, regulations and give aways. Blew BILLIONS on "Clean Energy" that any 1/2 assed engineer could tell you wouldn't work.

Went around apologiving and bowing to all the muslim scum, because this would make us seem more "friendly" to them. Two years after his announced "Arab Spring", they rap and kill our ambassador..... meanwhile, while this is happening, Obama flies to Vegas for another fund raiser.

He has done NOTHING in the last two years. NOTHING. All he has done is fund raise, dramatically increase the number of people dependent on the government, kissed muslim ass, and spent us into an enormous federal deficit.

You are obviously some union whack job based on your name. Unions suck, they have destroyed all U.S. industry. GM is next....

Crestor, you believe what you want to believe. Get away from Fox News and get informed of the truth. P.S. I think there's a job waiting for you at the U.N.

nice of you to express yourself and show your true non american thoughts, al quada much?

Molly.. how about you get away from MSNBC, NBC, CNN and all the other in the bag for Obama Media. What did I say that is not true... SPECIFICALLY? Have trouble with facts? Oh ya, you don't hear any facts from Rachel Madcow or that drunk Chris Mathews.

Meanwhile, over at the paranoid, delusional conspiracy camp...

Eric W, all I said was that Israel will go it alone without the U.S. hurting this presidents chance for re elction. Can you even read?

I did, and I won. Thanks for asking.

I did and won. I'm the majority inspector of elections, which is why I am one of the few that actually knows what she is talking about.

The Patch is just trying to "ease you in" to the fact President Obama is here to stay for another term and four more years. Did you catch the fine print on the Dinner with Barack ad? Paid for by Obama Victory Fund 2012. It's in the bag buddy.

Well, they are part of the Huffington network, so ...

Look at Section 21 and tell me how your argument makes sense? No one is stopping anyone from voting, they are only asking that people prove they are who they say they are, and, I will add, are voting in the correct polling location.

Frightwingnut? Where will you hide when you are wrong?

Your id does not have to have your current address so there goes your voting in the correct polling location, but than again that only matters if you are illegally registered in more than 1 location. Provisional ballot is another barrier against having your vote count

If you don't like the two major party candidates, maybe read up on some of the other parties. If you're just looking at the two big ones, only one of them is remotely pro-choice, and both want to stop illegal immigration in their own way.

Manan Trivedi

Cricket, cricket.. I said I will take her, when and what time?

Leave Granny at home.. she's probably too senile to vote anyway.

That's what I do. voterIDhelp@gmail.com

Yes I would take the time to do this for my mother who spent the better half of her 92 years taking care of an ungrateful @ss. So, thinking about it, since it's your mother being discussed, why don't you do it and stop your complaining?
Once again, wipe your tears!

Not a supporter of the 10th amendment, slyfox?

you should develop the skills to proofread before you make such an enormously offensive comment... who exactly are "these people?"

Lets stay in the context that we are talking about people who have no IDs. Calm down there R Mex. No use mixing metaphors.

You post implies that people who do not have a job are deadbeats. Does that mean women (or men) who choose to stay home to raise their kids (budget their family on one salary), are deadbeats? Are you saying a stay at home mom is not educated? What about the ones with PhD educations?

This is the most inane comment yet. Perhaps you should go back and study the ideals on which the nation was founded, not its imperfect beginnings. Using your logic I guess we should kept people enslaved - had many founding fathers that owned and supported that laudable institution. (Sarcasm) Oh Brother.

have you been to a PennDOT license center recently? Have you seen the long lines, know the limited hours? Have you dealt with untrained staff that makes you make unnecessary trips back and forth? Have you had to choose between working a day to feed your family or taking a day off to get ID to vote? How dare you call people who don't have ID to vote irresponsible and lazy. Disabled Veterans, senior citizens and the working poor are not lazy. How can you be lazy when you have to work 2 jobs to make ends meet? How irresponsible can you be to get injured while you served your country? How clueless can you be?

Maybe you can set us up with a link? Who get's the paper anymore?

amen... the law is fine as long as it's implemented over a reasonable period of time, not ramrodded through state legislatures in a craven and obvious move to disenfranchise non-republicans immediately prior to a federal election...

Call your local committee man or woman. They will help you, believe me. Start by calling your towns business office and tell them you need help. Someone will help you.
How about a bicycle? The PennDot office in Media is open on Saturday.

Well... the Democrats do vote for the dead on election day....

1. My fiance and I go grocery shopping Sunday nights
2. The penn dot center closest to me is open Tues- Saturdays 8:30- 4:15 which is pretty much work times for a lot of people
3. I am fortunate enough to have people who can take the time out of their day to help me but for other people who work pay check to pay check I'm sure it is hard
4. People say if they can get out and vote they can get out and get an ID. Voting takes place all day and into the evening. It is a lot easier to hitch a ride with the many people around that are going to the same polling place than it is to find someone willing to take time off of work and drive the 30 minutes to Penndot from my place, sit there and wait, and drive the 30 minutes back during that specific time.

I was responding to Louis' comment where he was saying people who don't have drivers license don't go out grocery shopping or have friends. I can't drive right now and do things off hours when people aren't working like grocery shopping on Sunday night. If they are requiring everybody to have ID now they should open the centers all week for longer. This article is posted on all of the area Patches. I live over an hour away from Media.

Eric, the IDs are free. You need to get back on the meds.

I bet you a beer that nothing will happen except in areas that have conflicts of suspected voter fraud already.

I imagine we're going to be hearing quite a bit about suspected voter fraud this year - what's the point in starting a witch hunt if you don't have a trial at the end to sate the mob?

Dannytheman, just a beer? You don't seem so certain of yourself. But, I wager nothing will happen because the courts will not allow this law to go into effect until after the election. PA better make these voter ID's more accessible. Currently, they are only offered at PennDot Drivers License centers. Rural areas, that is a hike (a day trip in some places). Let's be reasonable here and allow them to vote until PA can iron out the loose ends.

The beer keeps me safe with the IRS. I have driven across PA many times, and there is NO county that takes a day to drive across, gross embellishment of the facts. I have driven a motorcycle from Philly to Erie Island in less than 9 hours. Please, please find some facts. I believe the ruling will stand, I believe the state is doing what is needed to comply. A sworn statement is all that is needed to get a FREE PA ID card. I believe that PENNDOT will expand their hours for the month of October.

@Wayne.....Thumbs up on your post!

Funny thing is, when they make a requirement to have an ID to gather the windfall of benefits the ACA offers, it will suddenly become a breeze to get to a PENNDOT office and all these "difficulties" will melt away!

The liberal opposition to this has never been about the practicality of IDs, though, but in how they've been poorly implemented in this particular instance.

Like I asked from another drone parroting the injustice of Obamacare, why do you support forced automobile insurance if you are against the proposed health plan?

The control our government wields over our lives and thoughts is, I think, not even close to the control corporations wield - the very existence of the Tea Party is testament to that. At least the government is ostensibly regulated and democratically controlled.

Oh, come on - we've been talking about this for months. The PA Voter ID issue is about in-person voter fraud. That issue is wholly, utterly, unrelated to absentee voting - all you need for that ballot in FL is a date of birth and a mailing address, and they can be requested over the phone and online. It has nothing at all to do with what we're discussing here.

PA voter ID law would does not address the issue in this article. Your side has no eveidnce of voter impersonization at the polls in PA so please do not try to invent stories now. If you like the law fine but don't try to say any supporting data exists to support its passage.

Renov8, How does your link justify this overzealous legislation? Florida is not Pennsylvania and like was said: this is about in person polling. You are evidently desperate to show that this law is needed. The party that whines about excessive government regulation are promoting excessive government regulation. Hypocrites. This is why Romney will not win. You are making him look bad.

Geez John, If you would have left your capped key locked, I would have thought you were doing an Ike impersonation-not sure now.

Don't waste your breath John. Liberals are idiots. They can't look at a situation and bring any logical thought to the process. They are just not very smart about the way things really work in the world. Combine about 35% lazy dependent people and combine them with 16% crap for brains liberal arts majors with low paying jobs, and you have the majority that will destroy this country. Obama is going to win. He's cool and he's black... that's all he needs to carry the votes of the simple minded in this country.

As a nation, at least in theory, we aren't tyrants, John - we don't rule by fear. Whether you want to call it war or murder, we've been killing Libyans in vastly greater numbers (1200 strike sorties in 2011) than they have us - your call for violent retaliation is no different than that of their own extremists.

Also, this thread is about the PA Voter ID law.

Wow morgan did you just excuse the libyans for killing Americans. Maybe you could join Obamas team i hear he's creating a new cabinet post, secretary of apologies and excuses. Heaven forbid we go to war but if we do hilliary will have to give Obama one of her balls just to give us a chance at victory.

Wow, Ron, did you just excuse the Americans for killing Libyans? My point was that responding to ideological violence with more ideological violence only begets more ideological violence. If we're going to act surprised and indignant when people we are shooting at decide to shoot back, maybe we should rethink how we're using our armed forces.

No Morgan i give them my praise. Because no excuses are needed for the brave men and woman whom helped rid the world of ruthless dictators like gaddafi, hussein and terrorist like bin laden or for the soldiers whom killed japanese and germans during WWII to keep the world safe from the likes of hitler. Or for the soldiers whom helped keep parts of korea and vietnam free. I have family members whom fought in WWII korea and vietnam and one whom is still in the navy and was recently on an aircraft carrier that was threatened by iran. two were injured and im proud and make no excuses for them or the other brave men and woman whom risk their lives for all Americans even nitwits like yourself whom make excuses for the enemy.

The Republican dependency on the Tea Party is their undoing - the Koch's have masterfully manipulated the most fearful and ignorant Americans into believing that their individual liberty can only exist within a child-like bubble of indignant selfishness, defensive denial of things they don't want to learn, and an obliviousness to cause and effect - all reinforced by the shallowest of jingoism and propaganda.

The American Republican Party has struggled to find intellectual leadership since Nixon's decline - they had a choice to denounce corporate control and racial extremists and they didn't, and now the Party is too weak to win without them. This country needs a counterpoint to the leading party to ensure balance and accountability, but the Tea Party's ignorance, while it may have buoyed the GOP in the short term, is an anchor sinking that ship. That's how modern companies are run - huge short term gains for board members (see: America in the 1980s), long term consequences for everyone else be damned (see: America in the 2010s). Because the party is powerless if they split, the change back to measured economic, social and international strategy has to come from within the Republican Party and that can't happen until they thoroughly quell the tide of ignorance that is the foundation of the Tea Party.

I hope they can do it.

Any former Democrats that felt the Tea Party more accurately encapsulated their views must have been awfully confused people - the platforms are almost entirely contradictory. I'm sure there are some out there, of course - the Tea Party has been a haven to the ignorant of all stripes. Regardless, if the Republicans knew how to run their party in the new millennium, they wouldn't be having their ranks stripped from office when they refuse to acquiesce to their most extreme members.

When you're an idiot, almost everybody else is going to look like an elitist. And, of course, an individual saying something it doesn't make it true - fortunately, we live in a world with vast expanses of information at our fingertips with which to determine veracity, which is more the shame that so many choose to limit themselves to echo chambers of self-aggrandizing agreement no matter how intellectually dishonest it might be.

I don't think we're going to change the minds of the people commenting, we've already formulated our thoughts enough to want to express them, but I think it's important to have the discussion for those who just read this to see how the community responds, and, in a broader sense, to perpetuate political discourse among people as a fundamental responsibility as members of a democratic electorate.

What point - that I'm being an elitist? What I'm talking about is Egalitarianism, which is, you know, basically the opposite of Elitism. If you're seeing the specter of elitism in anything that resembles informed discourse, or in the broad dismissal of the willfully ignorant, then you are deeply misunderstanding the conversation. Actual Elitism - if you, for some reason, cared to understand its meaning - is a core pillar of the Plutocratic and Aristocratic corporate machinations of those pulling the strings of the Tea Party.

How many fraudulent in-person votes using deceased names were there in the last PA election? In the big South Carolina case, that I'm guessing you are referencing given it's prominent role as a talking point earlier this year when the ID law first came up, there were less than 10 instances an investigation couldn't exempt, and none of those were conclusively fraud - SC, like PA, also had to testify that there were zero examples of in-person voter fraud using deceased names:

http://www.thestate.com/2012/02/23/v-print/2164540/state-election-commission-finds.html

Morgan, you mean zombie apocalypse voters? They are amazing, Not only can the morph into the age of the deceased voter, they are also clairvoyant forgers who can sign just how the deceased person used to.

I don't understand... are you telling us that our photo IDs for school, driving, passport, secure areas, etc do not need to be up to date because "does an expiration date change who you are"? Of course it doesn't. Why did you wait till now to start a crusade against expiration dates?

Wait. Don't we become completely different people when our id's expire? I knew the promoters of this new law were lying to me.

Your beef was illustrated with the cutesy line, "does an expiration date change who you are?"

The answer is... duh, no. So, what's your excuse for using ID's that are expired? Just because you think they should be? We could get into a discussion about why expiration dates are on IDs but that goes way beyond the scope of this topic.

It's just silly, your point is just incredibly lame and silly. You're actually complaining that the IDs required have to be up to date and current? We are past complaining about having to use IDs and are now onto complaining that these IDs must be current? Really?

Wayne, that's not what she's saying - it's that there are normally-valid photo IDs that people use in situations when they need a photo ID to verify themselves, but because the ID lacks an expiration date, or because the formerly-valid ID is no longer current, it does not meet the requirements for this voting law. I'm pretty sure she's pointing out that it's another needless obstacle the way this law was written. If a state driver's license is valid proof of identity, and an elderly voter who stopped driving completely a few years ago still uses it for usual things despite it being expired - picking up prescriptions and the like - they won't be able to use it for voting. Just because they are no longer valid to drive, doesn't mean the ID no longer verifies their identity, right?

So because your pharmacist might accept an expired drivers license as a valid ID the state must also? More absurdity...

Wayne, nobody's saying 'they must' - it's just an example of one of many ways that the law is rather arbitrary in its requirements. It addresses a basically non-existent problem in a seemingly-purposefully arcane manner, and this is an area where more time spent crafting the law could have made it more inclusive without diminishing what it's supposed purpose is. If the real goal here was preventing voter fraud, we'd be targeting absentee ballots and poll worker training for systematic improvements - the real source of the vast majority of fraud and errors - as well as greatly restricting partisan gerrymandering. In-person voter fraud is a witch hunt - it's the least common (probably because its the least-effective) method of corrupting the vote results.

Can you actually argue that this won't ultimately prevent more legitimate votes than it will prevent fraudulent ones, when every bit of data we have shows thousands without a valid ID and single-digit-at-most occurrences of in-person fraud?

Wayne they aren't expired, they don't have an expiration date. The penndot IDs can be expired though by up to 12 months and still used as ID to vote. Wrap your head around the logic of the PA voter ID law. Still no one has come up with a scenario were The law will stop a fraud that wouldn't have been stopped with the precautions that we're in place .

Adrian, you are the one that brought up expiration dates and now you are saying, "they don't have an expiration date"? What?

Morgan why would insisting on current valid IDs be considered "arbitrary" but accepting an old out of date one not? I find your use of the word "arbitrary" to be rather... arbitrary, if not just plain confusing and self-serving.

A scenario where the old way was easy to fraudulently exploit. Not my story but Chris Mathews. Quote:

"Because they—and I know this goes on. It has gone on in old-time politics. It has gone on since the ‘50s that I know about.
People call up, see if you voted or you‘re not going to vote. The, all of a sudden, somebody does come and vote for you. This is an old strategy in big city politics."

To confirm that quote you can find it at MSNBC transcripts:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43844212/ns/msnbc-hardball_with_chris_matthews/t/hardball-chris-matthews-wednesday-july/#.UGV0jE2HJll

Right now there's quite a bit of calling going on to see if people are registered and voting.

Wayne, the law brought up the expiration dates. It requires expirations dates on IDs that never needed expiration dates. And you can vote with an expired license or penndot ID card. Many of the IDs you can use to vote in the law to vote did not exist when the law was passed, which is why I asked the question. I REALLY know this subject and all the misinformation that is out there is clouding the real issue that the law doesn't prevent fraud just voting. I really believe that IDs should be necessary to register to vote. As a majority inspector of election i work to make sure there is no fraud. The example of the parties calling to see if you voted than going to vote for you is poll worker fraud, because the signatures would not match and the poll worker is supposed to ask for ID. This law will not stop that nor will it stop duplicate voting because a current address is not necessary. Has your head exploded yet?

even they voted for Obama in 2008

Not an original thought in your head. The modern man, leave your thinking up to Google.

Yeah you are right Radnortownship, FACTS are for chumps. Better to make up our own "original thoughts" instead.

Thanks for the laugh....Have a good weekend. Maybe if you are good your Mom will let you use the car tonight to go to your next tea bagger meeting.